Does anybody tow with crossover SUV or minivan
Question:
>"By the way, not everybody can, or wants to, own a 1 ton crew-cab dually tow >vehicle and I don’t understand why some people feel it’s necessary to >denigrate those who choose to own something smaller and tow within it’s >rated limits."
GREYLOCK SAID: >Seems to me it is the people who drive the small vehicles that are more >argumentative >about those of us that DO drive the bigger vehicles. I don’t CARE what >anyone else >drives unless they endanger ME by overwhelming the capabilities of the >vehicle they are driving.
That is not the least bit true. I have never read a post where the guy with the smaller vehicle denigrates the BIG macho truck owner for his choice in tow vehicles, but the reverse is certainly true. "Unless they endanger ME by overwhelming the capabilities of the vehicle they are driving" . . . That statement sounds pretty opinionated and argumentative to me. That’s one of those "I’m so good, you’re so bad" zingers. Ron
Response:
snipped > Seems to me it is the people who drive the small vehicles that are more > argumentative > about those of us that DO drive the bigger vehicles. I don’t CARE what > anyone else > drives unless they endanger ME by overwhelming the capabilities of the > vehicle they are driving.
snipped Sure Greylock. And that goes for those driving the "bigger" vehicles. You need to stay within those guidelines as well. You are no safer towing close to maximum than a 150/1500 owner towing close to his. The reason you see so much "said" in defense of the light duty vehicles is simply because, every time one says he tows with one, the naysayers come out of the woodwork. Most don’t have a clue whether such and such can tow anything but they are willing to chime in with heresy and rhetoric. Hugh
Response:
undies in a serious knot, wrote these words: >Who said anything about towing more than the rating?
Nobody, but see below. >Who implied that this little survey was going to prove anything?
You did. It is axiomatic that if you run a survey you plan to "prove" something – even if only that the "survey" was meaningless. >I simply wanted to learn about a the real world experiences and usage >patterns of a few people, I think I explained that.
You didn’t explain why, nor have you given a plausible reason for getting twisted outa shape because you didn’t get what you wanted. Life is like that, get over it. >On what do you base your, vehemently stated, claims of the risk and dangers >of towing loads that the manufacturers designed tested and rated these >vehicles to tow? Do you have objective test data? NHTSA data? Compiled >accident reports? Warranty data?
How about 50 years of hands-on experience towing a wide variety of stuff, from tiny ulitity trailers to a fifth wheel travel trailer – including regular weekly or more current use of utility trailers and about 100,000 miles towing an Airstream TT. >Have you ever towed anything with one of these vehicles?
Yes, several times. Each time it was NOT a good experience, though I have crashed only once 46 years ago hauling a loaded U-Haul with an old Caddie in snow! >Anything can be overloaded, even Suburbans, but that’s >really not the point. If some people do regularly overload their crossover >SUVs or minivans, I’m curious to know about that, and to know whether it’s >intentional or unintentional.
I dunno what in the WORLD you have in mind with the expression "crossover SUV", but whatever that means, I offer for readers’ consideration the following comments about "tow ratings" and their actual relevance to rv’ers: There is pretty general agreement that it is unwise and possibly dangerous to EXCEED maximum ratings, but many of us with long trailering experience have found that tow rating information is often misleading – or at least not applicable to everyone. Recognizing that safety is always relative and not absolute, I offer the following reasons for urging very conservative towing weights: 1. The tow rating is ALWAYS a maximum figure, and is as large as the manufacturer dares make it. They hope you will buy their stuff for towing. Their rating may or may not be right for you. Every maker has his own methods of setting tow ratings. Some are conservative and some are ludicrously over-stated (many Jeep Cherokees are rated at 5,000 lbs, and IMO are hopelessly overloaded at that figure). 2. MOST tow ratings (nothing personal or specific vs your brand) do not allow for long steep grades – up or (especially) down. 3. Most tow ratings make no allowance for bad road conditions. 4. Most tow ratings are accompanied by asterisks that call attention to special equipment "required". Your rig may not have those features. 5. Most tow ratings make no allowance whatever for emergency maneuvers. I assure you your vehicle WILL NOT turn or stop as fast or as safely with the maximum load as it will with a lot less. The difference can be dramatic. Don’t believe me? Try a few tactics in a large parking lot. 6. Vehicle tow ratings make no allowance for the DRIVER’S "tow rating". No insult intended, but if you have to ask how much your rig will tow, you have neither the experience or the knowledge to handle the maximum load safely. IMO. 7. One of the most-overlooked factors in safe towing is a COMBINED maximum (GCWR = Gross Combined Weight Rating, often only found in a towing guide) that dictates a much lighter-than-maximum TOWED load. Most of the weight of cargo & passengers in the tow vehicle must be deducted from the permissible towed load to find the true rating. Some towing guides appear to gloss over this issue because the marketing types want to put the best possible face on their product. 8. What is reasonably safe and comfortable at 45 mph may well be a lethal weapon at 75. Tow ratings, IMO, do NOT reflect any respect for this hazard. 9. One party wrote to say "I live at 6200 feet above sea level and since an internal combustion engine loses about 2 1/2 to 3% efficiency per thousand feet I’m losing 15-18 % of my performance unless I have a turbocharger or supercharger. I would not dream of loading past 75% of capacity regardless of what the engineer says." 10. Regardless of weight ratings, SUV’s and "1/2′-ton" pickups are mostly useless for serious towing. They will handle pop-ups and even some of the short "lite" trailers – and will haul yer big one out to the lake if you are careful. But competent handling of a large TT requires a long wheelbase & short overhang.
is how far, how safely?" BOTTOM LINE: IF you trust the experienced trailerists who have been there and done that and don’t want to go back, you will not exceed about 75% of the rated maximum. The number is of course not writ by the finger of God on a stone tablet – it is merely an indication that you should stay well below the manufacturer’s maximum allowance if you want a safe, comfortable trip. Some say the figure ought to be as low as 50 or 60%. But except for a few macho braggarts, most experienced folks agree in principle if not detail with these concerns. For example, go to http://www.popuptimes.com/articles/archive1/ruleofthumb_1.asp Make up your own mind who to believe. I don’t have a nickel invested in your rig, so you can do as you please. Will KD3XR —- the Curmudgeon of Sill Hill Before flaming, pause. I post to help rv’ers and annoy morons. Whichever shoe fits, wear it. Will KD3XR
Response:
"By the way, not everybody can, or wants to, own a 1 ton crew-cab dually tow vehicle and I don’t understand why some people feel it’s necessary to denigrate those who choose to own something smaller and tow within it’s rated limits." Seems to me it is the people who drive the small vehicles that are more argumentative about those of us that DO drive the bigger vehicles. I don’t CARE what anyone else drives unless they endanger ME by overwhelming the capabilities of the vehicle they are driving.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Stephen, Bill, John, Geodude, Brett, Rich & Lloyd, thank you very much for > your responses to my questions. If I do compile the results in some > fashion, I will post that, otherwise all of the responses are on the groups > for all to see. I’m sure more than a few people are interested in the > responses. > A few of the responses and threads went off in directions I didn’t plan or > anticipate. While I appreciate the helpful intent of those who warned me of > the folly of towing with such vehicles, I think you missed the point. I > would really like to see responses from people who personally own such > vehicles and have actual towing experience with them. I am an automotive > engineer and towing is one area in which I work. All of these vehicles have > tow ratings (with any required equipment), and I became curious about how > many people use them for towing and what their usual real-world towing > situations are. Granted the newsgroups are hardly representative of the > real world, and by choice of groups the results will be skewed, but I think > the responses from those in these groups who use such vehicles for towing > will still provide some valuable insight. > By the way, not everybody can, or wants to, own a 1 ton crew-cab dually tow > vehicle and I don’t understand why some people feel it’s necessary to > denigrate those who choose to own something smaller and tow within it’s > rated limits. > Still hoping for more responses. > Thanks, > John > Hi, > I’m doing a study and I’m interested in learning if anyone tows with a > crossover SUV (Toyota Highlander, Lexus RX300, Acura MDX, etc.) or a true > minivan (Dodge Caravan, Honda Odyssey, Nissan Quest, Toyota Sienna, … > not > Chevy Astro). > If you do tow with one of these would you mind answering just a few > questions? > 1. What year and model vehicle do you tow with? > 2. What do you tow? > 3. How often and how far do you tow? > 4. Where do you tow? > 5. What does your trailer weigh (loaded), or have you not weighed it? > 6. If you haven’t weighed it, can you make an educated guess as to the > loaded weight? > 7. How many people (adults? children?) and how much cargo do you > typically > carry in the tow vehicle (when towing)? > 8. Do you encounter steep grades when you tow, and how much do they slow > you down? > 9. Have you ever towed in Death Valley in the summer (anywhere similar, > steep grades, high temps)? > Please reply to the group, I’m sure a lot of us are interested in the > responses. > Thanks, > John
Response:
>Who said anything about towing more than the rating? >Who implied that this little survey was going to prove anything? I simply >wanted to learn about a the real world experiences and usage patterns of a >few people, I think I explained that. >On what do you base your, vehemently stated, claims of the risk and dangers >of towing loads that the manufacturers designed tested and rated these >vehicles to tow? Do you have objective test data? NHTSA data? Compiled >accident reports? Warranty data? Have you ever towed anything with one of >these vehicles? Anything can be overloaded, even Suburbans, but that’s >really not the point. If some people do regularly overload their crossover >SUVs or minivans, I’m curious to know about that, and to know whether it’s >intentional or unintentional.
Now you know just how absurd some people on this group can be. Will Sill is nothing but a fruit cake with some stubborn notions about towing (and other things as well). He has written a boiler plate that likes to make people barf. I own a 30′ Award and tow it with a Chevy G1500 van (full sized). The way I became sold on the Award (well known for it’s towability) was to borrow one from a dealership in NY. I towed the 27′ model with a Chevy Blazer with no load leveling or sway control. The Blazer has plenty reserved power and pulled the Award like a baby carriage. I was not the least bit ‘white knuckled’ or uncomfortable in any way. I am not a novice when it comes to towing and know when I have a vehicle in complete control. If you go to http://www.awardrv.com/overview.htm , you will see a picture of an Award being towed with a SUV. Silly Willey would probably say that the company is overselling it’s product, but I can assure you that Award owners are for the most part very knowledgable buyers. This is definitely one trailer that can be safely towed with a SUV. I tow with a full size van because I often take 1000/1500 lbs of tools and job materials with me. Ron
Response:
>Stephen, Bill, John, Geodude, Brett, Rich & Lloyd, thank you very much for >your responses to my questions. If I do compile the results in some >fashion, I will post that, otherwise all of the responses are on the groups >for all to see. I’m sure more than a few people are interested in the >responses. >A few of the responses and threads went off in directions I didn’t plan or >anticipate. While I appreciate the helpful intent of those who warned me of >the folly of towing with such vehicles, I think you missed the point. I >would really like to see responses from people who personally own such >vehicles and have actual towing experience with them. I am an automotive <<snip>> > Thanks, > John
There is a lot to be said for reading a post, identifying the question or objective and responding directly to it. If one has nothing to contribute to the post, it is perfectly acceptable to skip that post and move to another, or even log off and engage one’s spouse in conversation. Given the common philosophical theme of this group rejecting "nannyism," spontaneously launching into unsolicited lectures is "nannyism" of the first order. Commitment to personal freedom demands extending that freedom to others, even it it means that they might conduct their lives in ways we would not. Having said that, John, I did not drive a true crossover but the Jeep Grand Cherokee is a unibody. It was a ‘94 and I towed a travel trailer about 4500 lbs maximum. We were a family of three, plus a big dog or two, without much cargo in the tow vehicle. We towed throughout California and often encountered steep grades. The Jeep had excellent power on every grade, including the Grapevine, the Sierras, and Cuesta. We towed to Death Valley in spring and fall, with temps ranging up to a little over one hundred and never had any overheating or performance problems. Overall, the rig was very stable but tended to wallow more than I liked. -Dan
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Stephen, Bill, John, Geodude, Brett, Rich & Lloyd, thank you very much for > your responses to my questions. If I do compile the results in some > fashion, I will post that, otherwise all of the responses are on the > groups > for all to see. I’m sure more than a few people are interested in the > responses. > I’m wondering how you plan to get a statistically accurate and controlled > sample off a newsgroup.. > A few of the responses and threads went off in directions I didn’t plan or > anticipate. > this is Usenet, always happens and should not be unexpected. > While I appreciate the helpful intent of those who warned me of > the folly of towing with such vehicles, I think you missed the point. > no– be ready for anything. Any savvy and well seasoned posted knows that > threads go where they will, and you should not complain if you get different > responses than you ask for. This is why you’d be better off working with a > control group in a monitored situation with a printed questionnaire. > ps
You make a good point. It would make more sense to do an owner’s questionnaire asking if people towed, what they towed, how far they have towed, what their experience had been, if they’d had accidents towing, what mechanical breakdowns were experienced as a result of towing etc. If mnengineer really wants feedback, that’s the way to do it. All auto companies should do this and keep a database on the info. It sure would make executives aware of how their products were being used. Hugh
Response:
> Stephen, Bill, John, Geodude, Brett, Rich & Lloyd, thank you very much for > your responses to my questions. If I do compile the results in some > fashion, I will post that, otherwise all of the responses are on the groups > for all to see. I’m sure more than a few people are interested in the > responses.
I’m wondering how you plan to get a statistically accurate and controlled sample off a newsgroup.. > A few of the responses and threads went off in directions I didn’t plan or > anticipate.
this is Usenet, always happens and should not be unexpected. While I appreciate the helpful intent of those who warned me of > the folly of towing with such vehicles, I think you missed the point.
no– be ready for anything. Any savvy and well seasoned posted knows that threads go where they will, and you should not complain if you get different responses than you ask for. This is why you’d be better off working with a control group in a monitored situation with a printed questionnaire. ps
Response:
snipped gas > Will Sill KD3XR > "I get tired of explaining the obvious to the oblivious" [bill horne]
Blowitoutcherass you bag of wind. Hugh
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Who said anything about towing more than the rating? > Who implied that this little survey was going to prove anything? I simply > wanted to learn about a the real world experiences and usage patterns of a > few people, I think I explained that. > On what do you base your, vehemently stated, claims of the risk and dangers > of towing loads that the manufacturers designed tested and rated these > vehicles to tow? Do you have objective test data? NHTSA data? Compiled > accident reports? Warranty data? Have you ever towed anything with one of > these vehicles? Anything can be overloaded, even Suburbans, but that’s > really not the point. If some people do regularly overload their crossover > SUVs or minivans, I’m curious to know about that, and to know whether it’s > intentional or unintentional.
snipped As much as results of your survey would be appreciated by normal people, they will never post to this group or rec.outdoors.rv-travel. If someone does post with a positive towing experience, the ogres are quick to call them liars. It’s done with malice towards all who dare to go against the grain. All you have to do is read a few threads about towing and you’ll see what I mean. Those who have had a bad experience towing with a light duty vehicle will jump on the chance to relate how bad this practice is. As much as folks could be helped by positive experiences, they won’t get a chance to read them because of all the flack. I know it is possible to tow with minivans, compact pickups, "1/2" ton pickups, suv’s and cars. They all are being used successfully by intelligent people who actually know what they are doing. You won’t read about those people here. What you will read about, is people who didn’t know what they were doing and had a mishap on the road. I’ve given up on helping anyone understand what is safe to tow and not safe to tow with smaller vehicles. I’ve gotten blasted too many times by well meaning but uninformed people. They really believe they are right and are in many cases. But, the bottom line reason they are so negative is liability. They are so paranoid someone will say, "Will Sill (for instance) said I could tow my 18′ trailer with my S10 pickup and I had a wreck.". Maybe the "Will Sill’s" are right, I don’t know. I suppose it’s possible for some shark lawyer to make such a case. Howsomeever, I fail to see how an individual with a positive experience towing with a light duty vehicle, can be held responsible for some dumbass doing some hair brained thing. So don’t expect any useful information to come forth, the ogres will be sure to kill it in a hurry. I do have a picture <grin> of a Honda Odysee (sp) towing a Scamp trailer. Folks said it towed nicely, plenty of power and was a pleasure to tow with. Now watch the ogres go to work with that one <lmao>. Hugh
Response:
> A few of the responses and threads went off in directions I didn’t plan or > anticipate. While I appreciate the helpful intent of those who warned me of > the folly of towing with such vehicles, I think you missed the point. I
These same people ALWAYS miss the point and tell everyone they need a 1 ton pickup with transmission coolers, oil coolers, sway bars, and 10,000 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheel. > would really like to see responses from people who personally own such > vehicles and have actual towing experience with them. I am an automotive > engineer and towing is one area in which I work. All of these vehicles have > tow ratings (with any required equipment), and I became curious about how > many people use them for towing and what their usual real-world towing > situations are.
I tow a 13′ Boston Whaler and a utility trailer for all sorts of things (up hill at 70mph sometimes) with a Toyota Corolla. I’m sure in the minds of the people who responded to your post, I’m a hazzard to myself and everyone around me. I can’t safely tow 1000lbs with a Corolla. Its rated towing capacity is only a measley 1500 lbs and that means I can’t even safely carry a passenger in the vehicle much less a trailer! > By the way, not everybody can, or wants to, own a 1 ton crew-cab dually tow > vehicle and I don’t understand why some people feel it’s necessary to > denigrate those who choose to own something smaller and tow within it’s > rated limits.
Ohhh now I see the problem. I think you should stop posting to RV groups about towing. You think if you check your coolant, tire pressure, transmission fluid, and oil first and then stick to rated limits everything will be fine. Hah. You must have common sense or something.
Response:
> Hi, > I’m doing a study and I’m interested in learning if anyone tows with a > crossover SUV (Toyota Highlander, Lexus RX300, Acura MDX, etc.) or a true > minivan (Dodge Caravan, Honda Odyssey, Nissan Quest, Toyota Sienna, … not > Chevy Astro). > If you do tow with one of these would you mind answering just a few > questions?
John, I’ve gone through tow rating charts ’til I’m blue in the face, but I *do* have to make a couple of comments here. First, *none* of the crossover SUVs make good towing platforms simply due to their design. Too short, too narrow, too quick on steering inputs (typical of many, if not most/all, SUVs), too low on tow capacities, must have tranny coolers, and special gear ratios. IMO, altogether too many things which affect towing/handling…and ALL not very good characteristics for towing applications. As to the minivans, I don’t believe ANY of them would be suitable for towing anything but the very lightest of trailers. I’ve looked up ALL the vehicles you mentioned in tow rating charts dating from 1997 to 2001. Sorry, I don’t have the 2002 ratings available. NONE of the above-mentioned vehicles impressed me at all. Sorry I don’t have any answers for your *specific* questions, but perhaps the above input may help you a bit in your research. Good luck. — Ram RV Safety www.rvsafety.com Fix address to reply
Response:
Who said anything about towing more than the rating? Who implied that this little survey was going to prove anything? I simply wanted to learn about a the real world experiences and usage patterns of a few people, I think I explained that. On what do you base your, vehemently stated, claims of the risk and dangers of towing loads that the manufacturers designed tested and rated these vehicles to tow? Do you have objective test data? NHTSA data? Compiled accident reports? Warranty data? Have you ever towed anything with one of these vehicles? Anything can be overloaded, even Suburbans, but that’s really not the point. If some people do regularly overload their crossover SUVs or minivans, I’m curious to know about that, and to know whether it’s intentional or unintentional.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "mngineer" recently wrote these words: >A few of the responses and threads went off in directions I didn’t plan or >anticipate. While I appreciate the helpful intent of those who warned me of >the folly of towing with such vehicles, I think you missed the point. > I think YOU miss the point! It is foolish to the point of being > virtually criminal to lead people to believe that small SUV’s & > minivans are suitable for towing any but the very lightest, small > trailers. Your motives are not clear, but it SEEMS you want to > confirm a pre-conceived notion that it’s OK if lots of people do it! > But even if you compile a list of thousands of people who do so and > have thus far survived, you’ll only have more evidence of what we > already know: many people ain’t very bright. > People take chances all the time – and most survive. They believe rv > salesmen who say "I have plenty of customers that tow these 30′ > trailers with Blazers". They believe Mazda salesmen who say "this > will tow far more than the rating – the company is just engaged in > CYA". They believe half-assed usenet surveys showing that lots of > people Do It. > But they are deceived, and a substantial number of them end up wrecked > and/or broke down along the road. Those that survive discover towing > is such a white-knuckle/cold sweat experience that it ain’t safe or > comfortable – and the bright ones eventually recognize that towing a > trailer is not the trivial operation the grinning geek at the rv lot > told them, and that they need a suitable TOW VEHICLE, not a grocery > hauler, not a soccer mom’s minivan, and not a play-in-the-dirt SUV. > As for you, anonymous "mngineer", I’m sorry you’re offended by the > fact that many replies challenged your intelligence – but you ain’t > too bright yourself if you think an idea can be justified if you can > get a lot of votes for it. Large numbers of people CAN be wrong. > Will Sill KD3XR > "I get tired of explaining the obvious to the oblivious" [bill horne]
Response:
John, Can you be more specific about your work? Are you an analyst? Do you work on the test side of things, or something else? I used to tow my 01 Starcraft 2406 with a 98 Grand Voyager 3.3l (sans tow package). The camper probably weighs 2500# fully loaded. The combination handled very well, without a hint of sway, but was severely lacking in other areas (little engine power, rear sag, reportedly a weak transmission). I upgraded to an 01 Astro and the power’s there and the rear does not sag much, but there’s a bit more tendency to sway. another John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Stephen, Bill, John, Geodude, Brett, Rich & Lloyd, thank you very much for >your responses to my questions. If I do compile the results in some >fashion, I will post that, otherwise all of the responses are on the groups >for all to see. I’m sure more than a few people are interested in the >responses. >A few of the responses and threads went off in directions I didn’t plan or >anticipate. While I appreciate the helpful intent of those who warned me of >the folly of towing with such vehicles, I think you missed the point. I >would really like to see responses from people who personally own such >vehicles and have actual towing experience with them. I am an automotive >engineer and towing is one area in which I work. All of these vehicles have >tow ratings (with any required equipment), and I became curious about how >many people use them for towing and what their usual real-world towing >situations are. Granted the newsgroups are hardly representative of the >real world, and by choice of groups the results will be skewed, but I think >the responses from those in these groups who use such vehicles for towing >will still provide some valuable insight. >By the way, not everybody can, or wants to, own a 1 ton crew-cab dually tow >vehicle and I don’t understand why some people feel it’s necessary to >denigrate those who choose to own something smaller and tow within it’s >rated limits. >Still hoping for more responses. >Thanks, >John > Hi, > I’m doing a study and I’m interested in learning if anyone tows with a > crossover SUV (Toyota Highlander, Lexus RX300, Acura MDX, etc.) or a true > minivan (Dodge Caravan, Honda Odyssey, Nissan Quest, Toyota Sienna, … >not > Chevy Astro). > If you do tow with one of these would you mind answering just a few > questions? > 1. What year and model vehicle do you tow with? > 2. What do you tow? > 3. How often and how far do you tow? > 4. Where do you tow? > 5. What does your trailer weigh (loaded), or have you not weighed it? > 6. If you haven’t weighed it, can you make an educated guess as to the > loaded weight? > 7. How many people (adults? children?) and how much cargo do you >typically > carry in the tow vehicle (when towing)? > 8. Do you encounter steep grades when you tow, and how much do they slow > you down? > 9. Have you ever towed in Death Valley in the summer (anywhere similar, > steep grades, high temps)? > Please reply to the group, I’m sure a lot of us are interested in the > responses. > Thanks, > John
John Laughlin (remove the x to e-mail). 2001 Starcraft 2406 2001 Astro
Response:
"mngineer" recently wrote these words: >A few of the responses and threads went off in directions I didn’t plan or >anticipate. While I appreciate the helpful intent of those who warned me of >the folly of towing with such vehicles, I think you missed the point.
I think YOU miss the point! It is foolish to the point of being virtually criminal to lead people to believe that small SUV’s & minivans are suitable for towing any but the very lightest, small trailers. Your motives are not clear, but it SEEMS you want to confirm a pre-conceived notion that it’s OK if lots of people do it! But even if you compile a list of thousands of people who do so and have thus far survived, you’ll only have more evidence of what we already know: many people ain’t very bright. People take chances all the time – and most survive. They believe rv salesmen who say "I have plenty of customers that tow these 30′ trailers with Blazers". They believe Mazda salesmen who say "this will tow far more than the rating – the company is just engaged in CYA". They believe half-assed usenet surveys showing that lots of people Do It. But they are deceived, and a substantial number of them end up wrecked and/or broke down along the road. Those that survive discover towing is such a white-knuckle/cold sweat experience that it ain’t safe or comfortable – and the bright ones eventually recognize that towing a trailer is not the trivial operation the grinning geek at the rv lot told them, and that they need a suitable TOW VEHICLE, not a grocery hauler, not a soccer mom’s minivan, and not a play-in-the-dirt SUV. As for you, anonymous "mngineer", I’m sorry you’re offended by the fact that many replies challenged your intelligence – but you ain’t too bright yourself if you think an idea can be justified if you can get a lot of votes for it. Large numbers of people CAN be wrong. Will Sill KD3XR "I get tired of explaining the obvious to the oblivious" [bill horne]
Response:
Stephen, Bill, John, Geodude, Brett, Rich & Lloyd, thank you very much for your responses to my questions. If I do compile the results in some fashion, I will post that, otherwise all of the responses are on the groups for all to see. I’m sure more than a few people are interested in the responses. A few of the responses and threads went off in directions I didn’t plan or anticipate. While I appreciate the helpful intent of those who warned me of the folly of towing with such vehicles, I think you missed the point. I would really like to see responses from people who personally own such vehicles and have actual towing experience with them. I am an automotive engineer and towing is one area in which I work. All of these vehicles have tow ratings (with any required equipment), and I became curious about how many people use them for towing and what their usual real-world towing situations are. Granted the newsgroups are hardly representative of the real world, and by choice of groups the results will be skewed, but I think the responses from those in these groups who use such vehicles for towing will still provide some valuable insight. By the way, not everybody can, or wants to, own a 1 ton crew-cab dually tow vehicle and I don’t understand why some people feel it’s necessary to denigrate those who choose to own something smaller and tow within it’s rated limits. Still hoping for more responses. Thanks, John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I’m doing a study and I’m interested in learning if anyone tows with a > crossover SUV (Toyota Highlander, Lexus RX300, Acura MDX, etc.) or a true > minivan (Dodge Caravan, Honda Odyssey, Nissan Quest, Toyota Sienna, … not > Chevy Astro). > If you do tow with one of these would you mind answering just a few > questions? > 1. What year and model vehicle do you tow with? > 2. What do you tow? > 3. How often and how far do you tow? > 4. Where do you tow? > 5. What does your trailer weigh (loaded), or have you not weighed it? > 6. If you haven’t weighed it, can you make an educated guess as to the > loaded weight? > 7. How many people (adults? children?) and how much cargo do you typically > carry in the tow vehicle (when towing)? > 8. Do you encounter steep grades when you tow, and how much do they slow > you down? > 9. Have you ever towed in Death Valley in the summer (anywhere similar, > steep grades, high temps)? > Please reply to the group, I’m sure a lot of us are interested in the > responses. > Thanks, > John
Response:
none…. — Bill & Sharon Girls 12 & 9, Big Boy 5 00 E-150, 02 Caravan 25 SLB, Michigan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I also wonder about the mini-vans laying by the side of the road at > Eisenhower. Are these people perhaps trying to pull the grade in drive, > overdrive on, and letting the transmission hunt? They might be flatlanders > who have never been in the mountains. > Since their main problem seemed to be overheating I will guess that they > were most likely ones without a towing package. I note that the Chylser > van van without a tow package is rated for 2000 pounds. > The rule of thumb is to reserve 25% but that should only apply for > larger trailers. I would say that a minimum of 1000 pounds should be > reserved for extras. > Bigger radiator and tranmission cooler is a necessity, even with larger > vehicles. > Too bad one can’t try out a pulling a trailer before buying. A good > test would be to see if you can stay up with traffic on the west > approach to the Eisenhower tunnel. I have seen motor homes dead in the > middle of the road. I have passed vehicles pulling trailers that were > going so slow I could have walked faster. With no place to turn around > it is a bad time to find out you can’t make it up the hill.
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Highly recommend the Honda Ody…… John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I’m doing a study and I’m interested in learning if anyone tows with a > crossover SUV (Toyota Highlander, Lexus RX300, Acura MDX, etc.) or a true > minivan (Dodge Caravan, Honda Odyssey, Nissan Quest, Toyota Sienna, … not > Chevy Astro). > If you do tow with one of these would you mind answering just a few > questions? > 1. What year and model vehicle do you tow with? 2002 Odyssey > 2. What do you tow? 24′ 1984 Starcraft Constellation 1800# > 3. How often and how far do you tow? 8500 miles to Alaska this year > 4. Where do you tow? Anywhere, Cal and the West > 5. What does your trailer weigh (loaded), or have you not weighed it? 1800 + 500 of stuff > 6. If you haven’t weighed it, can you make an educated guess as to the > loaded weight? > 7. How many people (adults? children?) and how much cargo do you typically > carry in the tow vehicle (when towing)? 2/2 +350#s > 8. Do you encounter steep grades when you tow, and how much do they slow > you down? yes 12% max, no slowing (3500# capacity) > 9. Have you ever towed in Death Valley in the summer (anywhere similar, > steep grades, high temps)? No problem, have Pow Steer Cooler and Tranny cooler as req’d by Honda > Please reply to the group, I’m sure a lot of us are interested in the > responses. > Thanks, > John
Response:
1 – 1999 Pontiac Trans Sport minivan (it’s my wife’s ;-)) 2 – Coleman Sun Valley, 2002 3 – every couple of weekends; just did 22 days from SE Ontario all through the Maritimes (5,000 kilometres) 4 – Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island 5 – the trailer weighs 2750 pounds loaded & unhitched from the van, hitched up the trailer had an axle weight of 2552 6 – weighed it two months ago, weighing it again tomorrow 7 – two adults, two kids, 810 pounds of stuff 8 – on grades 95% of the time we’ll drop to 80kph (50mph) from 100kph (62mph); if we can get a run at it we’ll do that and get up to 110kph – 120kph (like every other RV and truck, or so it seems); try to keep the van from double downshifts and watch the temps; the few times we’ve hit REALLY steep grades we’ve ended up around 60kph (40 mph) 9 – Nope. Have towed at 110kph (68mph) in 36 degree heat (97C) with AC going and no problems, steady temps out of the engine Compiling results? I’d love to see that. More towing info on my web page. Including the mystery typo, if you can spot it on my "towing page" where I show the weights. there is no X in my e-dress These are Our Excellent Adventures! –> www.magma.ca/~pnh
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I’m doing a study and I’m interested in learning if anyone tows with a > crossover SUV (Toyota Highlander, Lexus RX300, Acura MDX, etc.) or a true > minivan (Dodge Caravan, Honda Odyssey, Nissan Quest, Toyota Sienna, … not > Chevy Astro). > If you do tow with one of these would you mind answering just a few > questions? > 1. What year and model vehicle do you tow with? > 2. What do you tow? > 3. How often and how far do you tow? > 4. Where do you tow? > 5. What does your trailer weigh (loaded), or have you not weighed it? > 6. If you haven’t weighed it, can you make an educated guess as to the > loaded weight? > 7. How many people (adults? children?) and how much cargo do you typically > carry in the tow vehicle (when towing)? > 8. Do you encounter steep grades when you tow, and how much do they slow > you down? > 9. Have you ever towed in Death Valley in the summer (anywhere similar, > steep grades, high temps)? > Please reply to the group, I’m sure a lot of us are interested in the > responses. > Thanks, > John
Response:
> I also wonder about the mini-vans laying by the side of the road at > Eisenhower. Are these people perhaps trying to pull the grade in drive, > overdrive on, and letting the transmission hunt? They might be flatlanders > who have never been in the mountains.
Since their main problem seemed to be overheating I will guess that they were most likely ones without a towing package. I note that the Chylser van van without a tow package is rated for 2000 pounds. The rule of thumb is to reserve 25% but that should only apply for larger trailers. I would say that a minimum of 1000 pounds should be reserved for extras. Bigger radiator and tranmission cooler is a necessity, even with larger vehicles. Too bad one can’t try out a pulling a trailer before buying. A good test would be to see if you can stay up with traffic on the west approach to the Eisenhower tunnel. I have seen motor homes dead in the middle of the road. I have passed vehicles pulling trailers that were going so slow I could have walked faster. With no place to turn around it is a bad time to find out you can’t make it up the hill.
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> > If you are in mountain country, none of those work for anything but the > very lightest trailers.
OK, if it works for you. However, I find that when at over 10,000 foot altitude and above most of those tow ratings go out the window. And Death Valley with temperatures of well over 100 degrees can be tough without a trailer. I would still want a lot of saftey margin for that area.
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> OK, if it works for you. However, I find that when at over 10,000 foot > altitude and above most of those tow ratings go out the window. > And Death Valley with temperatures of well over 100 degrees can be tough > without a trailer. I would still want a lot of saftey margin for that > area.
I agree with you that 10,000 ft and steep grades will reduce the towing capability. The main thing that is reduced is engine power, but I find that I can keep up with most other tow vehicles + trailers on high passes. At least I am under the manufacturer’s weight limits by a 1000 lb margin and I suspect (but don’t know), that some of the pickups I see with monster 5W’s are over their limits. I also will concede that I think the Santa Fe is the heaviest trailer I would want to tow with the Sienna. Its dry weight is 1705 lbs and with options and loaded is about 2200 lbs. I don’t fill water tanks and I try to leave anything un-neccessary at home to lighten the load. I’ve never towed a trailer through Death Valley, but I know that in my car trips through there, the below sea level air pressure is like adding a turbocharger if you are coming from Denver (kind of fun). I would guess that towing prudently (overdrive off) and with the cooling system in good condition, I would have no problems. I also wonder about the mini-vans laying by the side of the road at Eisenhower. Are these people perhaps trying to pull the grade in drive, overdrive on, and letting the transmission hunt? They might be flatlanders who have never been in the mountains.
Response:
> Hi, > I’m doing a study and I’m interested in learning if anyone tows with a > crossover SUV (Toyota Highlander, Lexus RX300, Acura MDX, etc.) or a true > minivan (Dodge Caravan, Honda Odyssey, Nissan Quest, Toyota Sienna, … not > Chevy Astro).
If you are in mountain country, none of those work for anything but the very lightest trailers. If the vehicle is rated for 2000 pounds I would not pull anything over 1000. Ratings are without cargo and additional passengers. One warm summer day I saw about 20 of that type between Denver and the Eisenhower tunnel. All pulling pop-ups and all along the road with their hoods open. Astro/Safari shouldn’t even be listed with that type of minivan. They are rear wheel drive on a small truck chassis and can pull over 5000 pounds.
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> If you are in mountain country, none of those work for anything but the > very lightest trailers. If the vehicle is rated for 2000 pounds I would > not pull anything over 1000. Ratings are without cargo and additional > passengers. > One warm summer day I saw about 20 of that type between Denver and the > Eisenhower tunnel. All pulling pop-ups and all along the road with > their hoods open. Astro/Safari shouldn’t even be listed with that type > of minivan. They are rear wheel drive on a small truck chassis and can > pull over 5000 pounds.
I regularly tow our coleman Santa Fe with our Toyota Sienna mini-van in the moutains with no problems. I always tow with overdrive off and use appropriate gears for the grade. No overheating or cooked transmission fluid. The van has the tow package and is rated to tow 3500 lbs. I have weighed everything and everything is within limits (axle limits, tongue and combined weight). The combined tv and trailer limit is 7800 lbs and total loaded tv + trailer is 6840 lbs. So i guess it depends on what you mean by "very lightest". As long as you pay attention to the ratings, I don’t see a problem towing with a mini-van.
Response:
Hi, I’m doing a study and I’m interested in learning if anyone tows with a crossover SUV (Toyota Highlander, Lexus RX300, Acura MDX, etc.) or a true minivan (Dodge Caravan, Honda Odyssey, Nissan Quest, Toyota Sienna, … not Chevy Astro). If you do tow with one of these would you mind answering just a few questions? 1. What year and model vehicle do you tow with? 2. What do you tow? 3. How often and how far do you tow? 4. Where do you tow? 5. What does your trailer weigh (loaded), or have you not weighed it? 6. If you haven’t weighed it, can you make an educated guess as to the loaded weight? 7. How many people (adults? children?) and how much cargo do you typically carry in the tow vehicle (when towing)? 8. Do you encounter steep grades when you tow, and how much do they slow you down? 9. Have you ever towed in Death Valley in the summer (anywhere similar, steep grades, high temps)? Please reply to the group, I’m sure a lot of us are interested in the responses. Thanks, John
Response:
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