My Trace TC60 Charge Controller is not working right
Question:
Once a month, my Trace TC60 Charge Controller goes into equalization mode and the voltage is supposed to be limited to 15 volts during equalization….but the equalization mode in my TC60 is exceeding this voltage (15.5 volts or higher) and this excessive voltage is turning off the inverter which is protected against over voltage… in fact, one of my smaller Statpower Pro 250 (watt) inverter not only turned off, but it does not output any AC current now, and only whistles when I connect it to the batteries… so I guess the internal fuse is blown…. I have many other inverters, and my Xantrax 1000 watt inverter that I recently bought at Costco, also turned off today due to overvoltage but it was not damaged…. that is why I measured the TC60’s output voltage and found that it is putting a higher than rated voltage into the Golf Cart batteries… I will probably have to buy a new Charge Controller in the next few days, and have been looking at the newer Trace C-60 (12/24 volt input at 60 amps) charge controller… I see these controllers listed at Arizona Wind and Fire for $169…. it has been awhile since I bought a charge controller, so I wonder if that is a good price? Gig —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–
Response:
Gig , What is your bulk charge voltage setting ? (it can be set as high as 15 volts). According to the manual , the equalization mode will be bulk +1 volt (for 12 volts systems) for 2 hours see http://www.xantrex.com/support/docserve.asp?id=63 page #34 , so the controller can be putting out 16 volts if it’s set too.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Once a month, my Trace TC60 Charge Controller goes into equalization mode > and the voltage is supposed to be limited to 15 volts during > equalization….but the equalization mode in my TC60 is exceeding this > voltage (15.5 volts or higher) and this excessive voltage is turning off the > inverter which is protected against over voltage… in fact, one of my > smaller Statpower Pro 250 (watt) inverter not only turned off, but it does > not output any AC current now, and only whistles when I connect it to the > batteries… so I guess the internal fuse is blown…. I have many other > inverters, and my Xantrax 1000 watt inverter that I recently bought at > Costco, also turned off today due to overvoltage but it was not damaged…. > that is why I measured the TC60’s output voltage and found that it is > putting a higher than rated voltage into the Golf Cart batteries… > I will probably have to buy a new Charge Controller in the next few days, > and have been looking at the newer Trace C-60 (12/24 volt input at 60 amps) > charge controller… > I see these controllers listed at Arizona Wind and Fire for $169…. it has > been awhile since I bought a charge controller, so I wonder if that is a > good price? > Gig > —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–
Response:
Saw one on ebay for $145 if the Guppy fix does not work. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3173030285&categor…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gig , > What is your bulk charge voltage setting ? (it can be set as high as 15 > volts). According to the manual , the equalization mode will be bulk +1 volt > (for 12 volts systems) for 2 hours > see http://www.xantrex.com/support/docserve.asp?id=63 page #34 , so the > controller can be putting out 16 volts if it’s set too. > Once a month, my Trace TC60 Charge Controller goes into equalization mode > and the voltage is supposed to be limited to 15 volts during > equalization….but the equalization mode in my TC60 is exceeding this > voltage (15.5 volts or higher) and this excessive voltage is turning off > the > inverter which is protected against over voltage… in fact, one of my > smaller Statpower Pro 250 (watt) inverter not only turned off, but it does > not output any AC current now, and only whistles when I connect it to the > batteries… so I guess the internal fuse is blown…. I have many other > inverters, and my Xantrax 1000 watt inverter that I recently bought at > Costco, also turned off today due to overvoltage but it was not > damaged…. > that is why I measured the TC60’s output voltage and found that it is > putting a higher than rated voltage into the Golf Cart batteries… > I will probably have to buy a new Charge Controller in the next few days, > and have been looking at the newer Trace C-60 (12/24 volt input at 60 > amps) > charge controller… > I see these controllers listed at Arizona Wind and Fire for $169…. it > has > been awhile since I bought a charge controller, so I wonder if that is a > good price? > Gig > —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Once a month, my Trace TC60 Charge Controller goes into equalization mode > and the voltage is supposed to be limited to 15 volts during > equalization…but the equalization mode in my TC60 is exceeding this > voltage (15.5 volts or higher) and this excessive voltage is turning off the > inverter which is protected against over voltage… in fact, one of my > smaller Statpower Pro 250 (watt) inverter not only turned off, but it does > not output any AC current now, and only whistles when I connect it to the > batteries… so I guess the internal fuse is blown…. I have many other > inverters, and my Xantrax 1000 watt inverter that I recently bought at > Costco, also turned off today due to overvoltage but it was not damaged…. > that is why I measured the TC60’s output voltage and found that it is > putting a higher than rated voltage into the Golf Cart batteries… > I will probably have to buy a new Charge Controller in the next few days, > and have been looking at the newer Trace C-60 (12/24 volt input at 60 amps) > charge controller… > I see these controllers listed at Arizona Wind and Fire for $169…. it has > been awhile since I bought a charge controller, so I wonder if that is a > good price? > Gig > —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–
Well Gig. Welcome to the world of bargin priced equipment. The real problem is not the Reg but the inverter. If 15 volts is over voltage for the inverter then it was not a bargin at all. Typical over voltage should be around 17 volts. If you wish to persist with the inverter you have then I suggest you invest in a good quality reg with full programming capability. Then you can set all parameters to suit your needs. One such reg is the PL series digital regs from Plasmatronics. There may be others that I am not aware of. Search Plasmatronics and down load the service manuel for full specs. George
Response:
>Gig , >What is your bulk charge voltage setting ? (it can be set as high as 15 >volts). According to the manual , the equalization mode will be bulk +1 volt >(for 12 volts systems) for 2 hours >see http://www.xantrex.com/support/docserve.asp?id=63 page #34 , so the >controller can be putting out 16 volts if it’s set too.
For some reason my news server doesn’t show Gig’s original msg, so I’ll piggy-back on Guppy’s reply. 1. Everything Gup said is exactly right. 2. FWIW (though I know Gig’s in a much warmer climate than I am) if the batteries are cold and the C-60 is temp compensated, even the regular bulk voltage can get above 15V, never mind equalization. 3. I wouldn’t use automatic equalization myself. My Trojan data says not to do it unless measurement dictates that it’s necessary, and the only time I’ve considered it necessary (in the three years I’ve owned the batts) I shut everything else off. Cheers, -=s – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Once a month, my Trace TC60 Charge Controller goes into equalization mode > and the voltage is supposed to be limited to 15 volts during > equalization….but the equalization mode in my TC60 is exceeding this > voltage (15.5 volts or higher) and this excessive voltage is turning off >the > inverter which is protected against over voltage… in fact, one of my > smaller Statpower Pro 250 (watt) inverter not only turned off, but it does > not output any AC current now, and only whistles when I connect it to the > batteries… so I guess the internal fuse is blown…. I have many other > inverters, and my Xantrax 1000 watt inverter that I recently bought at > Costco, also turned off today due to overvoltage but it was not >damaged…. > that is why I measured the TC60’s output voltage and found that it is > putting a higher than rated voltage into the Golf Cart batteries… > I will probably have to buy a new Charge Controller in the next few days, > and have been looking at the newer Trace C-60 (12/24 volt input at 60 >amps) > charge controller… > I see these controllers listed at Arizona Wind and Fire for $169…. it >has > been awhile since I bought a charge controller, so I wonder if that is a > good price? > Gig > —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Once a month, my Trace TC60 Charge Controller goes into equalization mode > and the voltage is supposed to be limited to 15 volts during > equalization…but the equalization mode in my TC60 is exceeding this > voltage (15.5 volts or higher) and this excessive voltage is turning off the > inverter which is protected against over voltage… in fact, one of my > smaller Statpower Pro 250 (watt) inverter not only turned off, but it does > not output any AC current now, and only whistles when I connect it to the > batteries… so I guess the internal fuse is blown…. I have many other > inverters, and my Xantrax 1000 watt inverter that I recently bought at > Costco, also turned off today due to overvoltage but it was not damaged…. > that is why I measured the TC60’s output voltage and found that it is > putting a higher than rated voltage into the Golf Cart batteries… > I will probably have to buy a new Charge Controller in the next few days, > and have been looking at the newer Trace C-60 (12/24 volt input at 60 amps) > charge controller… > I see these controllers listed at Arizona Wind and Fire for $169…. it has > been awhile since I bought a charge controller, so I wonder if that is a > good price? > Gig > —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—– >Well Gig. Welcome to the world of bargin priced equipment.
The C-60 is bargain priced? Oh, the inverter. Right. 
>The real problem is not the Reg but the inverter. If 15 volts is over >voltage for the inverter then it was not a bargin at all. Typical over >voltage should be around 17 volts.
Em… I find 15.5V is fairly typical, 16 in some cases… out of curiosity could you name a specific 12V inverter that handles 17V? >If you wish to persist with the inverter you have then I suggest you >invest in a good quality reg with full programming capability. Then you >can set all parameters to suit your needs.
‘ang on, the C-60 is not exactly "programmable" but it certainly is adjustable. And it can be configured for manual or automatic equalization. My Trojan battery care information says only to equalize if voltage or s.g. (rested) measurements indicate that it’s needed. In three years I’ve only had to do it once. -=s – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->One such reg is the PL series digital regs from Plasmatronics. >There may be others that I am not aware of. >Search Plasmatronics and down load the service manuel for full specs. >George
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Once a month, my Trace TC60 Charge Controller goes into equalization mode >> and the voltage is supposed to be limited to 15 volts during >> equalization…but the equalization mode in my TC60 is exceeding this >> voltage (15.5 volts or higher) and this excessive voltage is turning off >> the >> inverter which is protected against over voltage… in fact, one of my >> smaller Statpower Pro 250 (watt) inverter not only turned off, but it does >> not output any AC current now, and only whistles when I connect it to the >> batteries… so I guess the internal fuse is blown…. I have many other >> inverters, and my Xantrax 1000 watt inverter that I recently bought at >> Costco, also turned off today due to overvoltage but it was not >> damaged…. >> that is why I measured the TC60’s output voltage and found that it is >> putting a higher than rated voltage into the Golf Cart batteries… >> I will probably have to buy a new Charge Controller in the next few days, >> and have been looking at the newer Trace C-60 (12/24 volt input at 60 >> amps) >> charge controller… >> I see these controllers listed at Arizona Wind and Fire for $169…. it >> has >> been awhile since I bought a charge controller, so I wonder if that is a >> good price? >> Gig >> —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– >> http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >> —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—– >Well Gig. Welcome to the world of bargin priced equipment. > The C-60 is bargain priced? > Oh, the inverter. Right. >The real problem is not the Reg but the inverter. If 15 volts is over >voltage for the inverter then it was not a bargin at all. Typical over >voltage should be around 17 volts. > Em… I find 15.5V is fairly typical, 16 in some cases… out of > curiosity could you name a specific 12V inverter that handles 17V?
How many do you want? The whole Selectronic range would seem to fit My SE 12 Lists ‘High DC Volts cutout – 17 volts’ >If you wish to persist with the inverter you have then I suggest you >invest in a good quality reg with full programming capability. Then you >can set all parameters to suit your needs. > ‘ang on, the C-60 is not exactly "programmable" but it certainly is > adjustable.
Thats nice. Then Gig can adjust it so it will not exceed 14.5 volts and then his problem is solved. Right? > And it can be configured for manual or automatic equalization.
Well then Gig can turn it off. Right? > My Trojan battery care information says only to equalize if voltage or > s.g. (rested) measurements indicate that it’s needed. In three years > I’ve only had to do it once.
Good. Glad to see you read the manuel. This prevents many problems. But the fact remains that an inverter that uses failure to handle over voltage is rubbish. There was no mention of failure of the reg to do its job. I suspect that the inverter in question is meant for camping and running off a car battery. Would not be suprised to find that it came with either battery clips or a cig lighter plug. You can find the reference manuel at <http://www.plasmatronics.com.au> Have a look and compare features with the C-60
Response:
> My Trojan battery care information says only to equalize if voltage or > s.g. (rested) measurements indicate that it’s needed. In three years > I’ve only had to do it once.
Turning off the auto equalize function has been suggested more than once, and seems to be good advice…. so I had to go online to see which dip switch to turn off… and found a PDF manual that had this information (I had misplaced my original Manual)… and turning off the auto equalize function was easy to do once I found the right dip switch… so the auto equalize function is now off… and it is equally easy to press the manual equalize dip switch if I want to… which will give the controller a one time shot… this buys me a bit more time in my purchase of a second controller… so maybe I can even save up for one of those pricey Outback MPPT controllers that deliver 15% more power during cloudy weather… Gig —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> Once a month, my Trace TC60 Charge Controller goes into equalization mode > >> and the voltage is supposed to be limited to 15 volts during > >> equalization…but the equalization mode in my TC60 is exceeding this > >> voltage (15.5 volts or higher) and this excessive voltage is turning off > >> the > >> inverter which is protected against over voltage… in fact, one of my > >> smaller Statpower Pro 250 (watt) inverter not only turned off, but it does > >> not output any AC current now, and only whistles when I connect it to the > >> batteries… so I guess the internal fuse is blown…. I have many other > >> inverters, and my Xantrax 1000 watt inverter that I recently bought at > >> Costco, also turned off today due to overvoltage but it was not > >> damaged…. > >> that is why I measured the TC60’s output voltage and found that it is > >> putting a higher than rated voltage into the Golf Cart batteries… > >> I will probably have to buy a new Charge Controller in the next few days, > >> and have been looking at the newer Trace C-60 (12/24 volt input at 60 > >> amps) > >> charge controller… > >> I see these controllers listed at Arizona Wind and Fire for $169…. it > >> has > >> been awhile since I bought a charge controller, so I wonder if that is a > >> good price? > >> Gig > >> —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > >> http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > >> —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—– > >Well Gig. Welcome to the world of bargin priced equipment. > The C-60 is bargain priced? > Oh, the inverter. Right. > >The real problem is not the Reg but the inverter. If 15 volts is over > >voltage for the inverter then it was not a bargin at all. Typical over > >voltage should be around 17 volts. > Em… I find 15.5V is fairly typical, 16 in some cases… out of > curiosity could you name a specific 12V inverter that handles 17V? >How many do you want? >The whole Selectronic range would seem to fit >My SE 12 Lists ‘High DC Volts cutout – 17 volts’
Gotcha. Over on this side of the ditch I’ve never even heard of Selectronic much less seen them offered for sale — possibly because (at a quick skim of their web site) it would appear that they do not offer 120VAC models nor do they appear to have North American distribution. I took a quick tour of the Xantrex site (one-stop surveying, given the number of companies they’ve inhaled) and everything I looked at fell into the range 15 – 16V with one exception at 16.5V. Outback: 16V. So from a global perspective I wouldn’t call 17V cutout from one manufacturer in Oz "typical." Desireable, perhaps. Meritorious, certainly. Typical, no. > >If you wish to persist with the inverter you have then I suggest you > >invest in a good quality reg with full programming capability. Then you > >can set all parameters to suit your needs. > ‘ang on, the C-60 is not exactly "programmable" but it certainly is > adjustable. >Thats nice. Then Gig can adjust it so it will not exceed 14.5 volts and >then his problem is solved. Right?
Yeah. > And it can be configured for manual or automatic equalization. >Well then Gig can turn it off. Right?
Yep, and he did. > My Trojan battery care information says only to equalize if voltage or > s.g. (rested) measurements indicate that it’s needed. In three years > I’ve only had to do it once. >Good. Glad to see you read the manuel. This prevents many problems. >But the fact remains that an inverter that uses failure to handle over >voltage is rubbish.
Well that’s a little strong; there are no absolutes as regards what is "non-rubbish" handling of any input or output conditions. The important thing is to be aware of the limitations of a given piece of gear (preferably before it’s purchased) and proceed accordingly. When my brother-in-law asks me about buying an inverter for his RV, I’m not going to tell him to import a Selectronic and buy a step-down transformer on the basis that everything else is rubbish. >There was no mention of failure of the reg to do its job. I suspect that >the inverter in question is meant for camping and running off a car >battery. Would not be suprised to find that it came with either battery >clips or a cig lighter plug.
Yep again, I agree that lower cutout voltages are common for portable inverters, and for that precise reason. And they can still be used quite successfully in other applications, with appropriate care. Same is true of the lack of I/O isolation which is another typical "feature" of smaller portable units. >You can find the reference manuel at ><http://www.plasmatronics.com.au> >Have a look and compare features with the C-60
I’m sure they’re marvelous. With respect to this thread, the bottom line for me is that there is nothing wrong with Gig’s C-60 and he doesn’t have to deep-six it until he’s good and ready to get something else. -=s
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >> Once a month, my Trace TC60 Charge Controller goes into equalization >> >> mode >> >> and the voltage is supposed to be limited to 15 volts during >> >> equalization…but the equalization mode in my TC60 is exceeding this >> >> voltage (15.5 volts or higher) and this excessive voltage is turning >> >> off >> >> the >> >> inverter which is protected against over voltage… in fact, one of my >> >> smaller Statpower Pro 250 (watt) inverter not only turned off, but it >> >> does >> >> not output any AC current now, and only whistles when I connect it to >> >> the >> >> batteries… so I guess the internal fuse is blown…. I have many >> >> other >> >> inverters, and my Xantrax 1000 watt inverter that I recently bought at >> >> Costco, also turned off today due to overvoltage but it was not >> >> damaged…. >> >> that is why I measured the TC60’s output voltage and found that it is >> >> putting a higher than rated voltage into the Golf Cart batteries… >> >> I will probably have to buy a new Charge Controller in the next few >> >> days, >> >> and have been looking at the newer Trace C-60 (12/24 volt input at 60 >> >> amps) >> >> charge controller… >> >> I see these controllers listed at Arizona Wind and Fire for $169…. it >> >> has >> >> been awhile since I bought a charge controller, so I wonder if that is >> >> a >> >> good price? >> >> Gig >> >> —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– >> >> http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >> >> —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—– >> >Well Gig. Welcome to the world of bargin priced equipment. >> The C-60 is bargain priced? >> Oh, the inverter. Right. >> >The real problem is not the Reg but the inverter. If 15 volts is over >> >voltage for the inverter then it was not a bargin at all. Typical over >> >voltage should be around 17 volts. >> Em… I find 15.5V is fairly typical, 16 in some cases… out of >> curiosity could you name a specific 12V inverter that handles 17V? >How many do you want? >The whole Selectronic range would seem to fit >My SE 12 Lists ‘High DC Volts cutout – 17 volts’ > Gotcha. Over on this side of the ditch I’ve never even heard of > Selectronic much less seen them offered for sale — possibly because > (at a quick skim of their web site) it would appear that they do not > offer 120VAC models nor do they appear to have North American > distribution.
Why don’t you ask them? > I took a quick tour of the Xantrex site (one-stop surveying, given the > number of companies they’ve inhaled) and everything I looked at fell > into the range 15 – 16V with one exception at 16.5V. > Outback: 16V.
Yeah it is really piss poor that you can’t get equipment that matches eh. > So from a global perspective I wouldn’t call 17V cutout from one > manufacturer in Oz "typical."
My little swiss made 150 watt inverter is the same. But then what do the swiss know anyway. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Desireable, perhaps. Meritorious, certainly. Typical, no. >> >If you wish to persist with the inverter you have then I suggest you >> >invest in a good quality reg with full programming capability. Then you >> >can set all parameters to suit your needs. >> ‘ang on, the C-60 is not exactly "programmable" but it certainly is >> adjustable. >Thats nice. Then Gig can adjust it so it will not exceed 14.5 volts and >then his problem is solved. Right? > Yeah. >> And it can be configured for manual or automatic equalization. >Well then Gig can turn it off. Right? > Yep, and he did. >> My Trojan battery care information says only to equalize if voltage or >> s.g. (rested) measurements indicate that it’s needed. In three years >> I’ve only had to do it once. >Good. Glad to see you read the manuel. This prevents many problems. >But the fact remains that an inverter that uses failure to handle over >voltage is rubbish. > Well that’s a little strong; there are no absolutes as regards what is > "non-rubbish" handling of any input or output conditions. The > important thing is to be aware of the limitations of a given piece of > gear (preferably before it’s purchased) and proceed accordingly.
Yes and I agree. Manufacturers should pay attention to industry practice in regards to compatability of equipment. After all with batteries being the heart of an off grid system with the fact that at some stage they may need to be equilised coupled with the ability of a good regulator to do this automatically. What excuse is there for an inverter that drops dead at 15 volts. The reason for this lack of design capacity is that people shop on price alone, not need. The US being a democracy means that everybody gets screwed. People ring me up and say "My inverter has stopped working, can you have a look at it?" When I ask them where they got it from the answer is always the same. It was made in asia. Half the circuit board fried to protect a 20 cent fuse. > When my brother-in-law asks me about buying an inverter for his RV, > I’m not going to tell him to import a Selectronic and buy a step-down > transformer on the basis that everything else is rubbish.
So you would advise your brother in law to buy cheap asian goods because the price is right. >There was no mention of failure of the reg to do its job. I suspect that >the inverter in question is meant for camping and running off a car >battery. Would not be suprised to find that it came with either battery >clips or a cig lighter plug. > Yep again, I agree that lower cutout voltages are common for portable > inverters, and for that precise reason. And they can still be used > quite successfully in other applications, with appropriate care. > Same is true of the lack of I/O isolation which is another typical > "feature" of smaller portable units.
Do you know what a born consumer is? >You can find the reference manuel at ><http://www.plasmatronics.com.au> >Have a look and compare features with the C-60 > I’m sure they’re marvelous. With respect to this thread, the bottom > line for me is that there is nothing wrong with Gig’s C-60 and he > doesn’t have to deep-six it until he’s good and ready to get something > else.
Well actually this is just what Gig is proposing isn’t he. "so maybe I can even save up for one of those pricey Outback MPPT controllers that deliver 15% more power during cloudy weather…" Then he can say he bought a wizz bang reg and it killed his new $50 inverter. No there is nothing wrong with the reg he has. The problem comes from Trace. At least in regards to Gigs 1000 W inverter. Now both the products come from the same company (Trace/Xantrax) and if someone is willing to put up with such nonsense as incompatability of a companys equipment, equipment which is sold to be used together in a system, then they deserve to be shorne of their money. "Caveat Emptor" is still the best advice to follow IF you put up with shit for lunch then there is no need for the cook to change the menu. George
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>IF you put up with shit for lunch then there is no need for the cook to >change the menu.
You’re such a jolly fellow George. -=s
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>You’re such a jolly fellow George.
Thanks for reminding me why I killfiled him. 8*) — William Smith ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc. www.compusmiths.com
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> >IF you put up with shit for lunch then there is no need for the cook to >change the menu. > You’re such a jolly fellow George. > -=s
As long as you get the point. If a manufacturer continues to serve up a less than acceptable product it is because no one is telling them what is wanted and/or needed. No good getting mad at me. My systems work. I don’t serve shit for lunch. I don’t buy or sell sub standard products. George
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> >You’re such a jolly fellow George. > Thanks for reminding me why I killfiled him. 8*)
Poor Willie Only two brain cells, and they don’t talk to each other.
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